Last night Joe made a comment about gun violence that is buzzing all over the internet and once again being taken to prove that maybe our boy Biden just can’t keep from saying ridiculous things. Joe criticized Bern for voting in favor of the 2005 PLCCA law which protects gun makers from torts, asserting that more than 150 million Americans had died from gun injuries since 2007. Biden’s campaign quickly covered up this silly gaff with his PR folks issuing a statement which brought the gun-death number down to 150 thousand, not million.
Actually, the number of gun deaths since 2007 through 2018 is 413,403, which will probably increase by another 70,000 or so if we could count right up to today. Now in fact, while 400,000+ deaths is nothing to sneeze at, it’s not 150,000. On the other hand, the category of gun injuries would rank it as the 11th leading cause of death in the United State, just below suicide, except that half of that suicide total also happens to have been caused by using guns. Which puts gun deaths into the Top 10 of all deaths.
This exchange between Bernie and Joe reminds me of another gun-comment that Joe made at a 2013 White House meeting of video-game executives when he said that not only did he have no problem with people keeping guns in their home for self-defense, but in fact his wife Jill had access to a shotgun in their Delaware home which she kept handy to protect herself and the kids when Joe was on the road.
For the very first time a national politician openly supported the idea of using a gun for self-defense. And Joe made it clear that if Jill heard something which sounded like someone was trying to break into their home, here’s what he expected her to do: “`Jill, if there’s ever a problem, just walk out on the balcony … take that double-barrel shotgun and fire two blasts outside the house,”‘ Biden said. “You don’t need an AR-15. It’s harder to aim, it’s harder to use and in fact, you don’t need 30 rounds to protect yourself.”
When I read Joe’s comment, I couldn’t believe that a national political figure could speak about guns in such a rational and reasonable way. Had I been the owner of Mossberg, Remington or one of the other companies that makes shotguns, I would have immediately packed up one of our guns, run to Joe’s office and presented the gun to him on behalf of both the gun industry and all gun-owning Americans.
Nothing of the sort occurred at all. To the contrary, Joe was lambasted by just about every hot-air balloon who speaks for Gun-nut Nation in the gun debate. Mike Huckabee got on Fox News and told his audience that two rounds from a shotgun wouldn’t be enough ammunition to protect yourself from an intruder who had a gun with more ammunition in the mag. I suspect that even Huckabee had trouble maintaining his TV composure while saying something so dumb.
You know going forward that no matter who heads the Democratic ticket, the gun ‘issue’ will be front and center during the 2020 national campaign. Which is all fine and well except I suspect that neither candidate, Trump versus whomever, will say anything as remotely logical and honest as what Joe said back in 2013.
No matter whether he’s talking about immigration, or the economy or anything else, what Trump has managed to accomplish in less than four years is to take all political rhetoric and all political debates to the extreme. Which is where the gun debate has always been, but now every other topic appears to be catching up.
If Trump said that 150 million Americans had died from gun injuries over the last twelve years, nobody on his staff would bother to correct him at all. Maybe it’s time for the Democrats to stop worrying about Joe’s gaffes and realize that the overblown rhetoric used in the gun debate has become the accepted verbal currency for every political exchange.
Feb 26, 2020 @ 11:35:40
I think we all just need to stop worrying about Groaping Joe and his sexual assaults, I predict he’ll drop out in less than 10 days after he again under-performs in SC and Super Tuesday.
Feb 26, 2020 @ 11:47:21
I’m still not sure how all those suicides by self imposed brain surgery would be stopped by not having PLCCA in force, since anyone buying a gun still has to pass the 4473 quiz.. I imagine more lawsuits that would bankrupt the gun companies, as Cuomo et al tried to do, would be the plan. But a gun can’t sense if someone is getting suicidal any more than my motorcycle can sense if I am having a bad hair day.
Back in the early 1980’s I was going through a painful divorce that I blamed on Yours Truly. One night I was in a black mood over events. I got home from work at the university and discovered my cat, who was at that point one of my few confidants, was lying quite flattened in a traffic lane in front of the house. So I wrapped it in an old sweater and buried it behind my little tomato patch. Landlord saw me and ordered me to dig it up and move it to the nearby field, so I did, rather grudgingly, and while muttering all of George Carlin’s “Seven Words” in no particular order.
Rather than chilling out, I got on my motorcycle, a midsize sport touring beast, and rode like a lunatic back towards campus, taking my anger out on the road. Halfway there while doing slightly under double the speed limit and weaving between cars, I got pulled over by a sheriff’s deputy.
Cop checked my paperwork. Clean record at that point. He made me a deal: promise me you won’t ever do stupid shit like that again and I’ll write you up for doing 19 over rather than what you actually were doing and I’ll leave out the reckless driving. Then you can keep your license but you gotta swear to keep the deal because scraping you young guys off the road after a fatal is depressing. Deal made and I have kept it.
But if I had instead wrapped myself around a tree or the axle of a pickup truck that night, would it have been Honda’s fault? Fact is, I probably owe my longevity to that cop, not to some politician on a soap box. Hats off to the Suffolk County Sheriff’s Dept. and that officer, long ago and far away.
Feb 26, 2020 @ 12:25:08
Wow, that’s a shitty Day, Khal! Glad you made it through it.
Unless I missed one, all of the lawsuits that lead up to PLCAA were either shot down or settled. There wasn’t a single case where a judge ruled against a gun company.
Meanwhile, because I’m familiar with the company and the story, when the Brady Campain sued Lucky Gunner because the killer in Colorado bought ammo from them, the case was tossed out by the judge as a violation of PLCAA, and the Judge ruled that the complatant, the Phillips family had to pay the legal fees of Lucky gunner to the tune of around $250,000. (Sources inside the company have told me it was closer to $400,000)
Of course this case, like the Clinton Era ones, was coordinated by the Brady Campain….who bravely ran away and left the Philips Family (who were actually employees of the Brady Campaign at the time) foot the bill. They declared bankruptcy.
Besides the anti-gun lobby group directing a family in grief to file a lawsuit that they likely KNEW would result in six-figures of judgement AGAINST them, left that family holding the bag, Lucky gunner WHO DID NOTHING WRONG is totally out a quarter of a million bucks.
Now of course ONE suit of a quarter of a million or more didn’t kill Lucky Gunner…..but if every time somebody abused some ammo (likely including self-inflicted wounds) they had to go to court, and with no PLCAA protections actually had to go to trial or cut their losses and settle, how long would there be a Lucky Gunner, or any other gun company.
That’s the whole damn point.
Also note that if every domestic arms company was put out of buisness, Mike would get his wish of banning all “Non Sporting” guns in America, thanks to the George HW Bush Import ban.
funny how all the roads lead in the same direction. It’s almost like they have a plan.
Feb 26, 2020 @ 13:00:08
Oh and Mike Here’s the full video of Joe’s 2013 gun statement:
https://youtu.be/HHZ7zXLvOkY
“When I read Joe’s comment, I couldn’t believe that a national political figure could speak about guns in such a rational and reasonable way. Had I been the owner of Mossberg, Remington or one of the other companies that makes shotguns, I would have immediately packed up one of our guns, run to Joe’s office and presented the gun to him on behalf of both the gun industry and all gun-owning Americans. ”
Except his statement was garbage. First he called for a double-barrel shotgun, which unless you are a force to be reckoned with on the cowboy action circuit is going to be a liability if you miss or there are multiple attackers.
Second he called for her to fire off her ammo into the air….you teach gun safety, you should know how HORRIBLE this advice is.
He said shotguns are easier to aim and easier to shoot than an AR-15. Anybody who’s patterned a shotgun at home-defense ranges, and everybody who’s fired an AR-15 knows that that is a fact-free statement (Especially in a double-barrel shotgun with a single-bead sight).
He is probably right that you don’t NEED 30 rounds to protect yourself….but you’ll probably need more than 2 and I’d rather err on the side of caution.
Another interesting fact is that Police have not only been dumping their revolvers for double-stack semi-autos for the last 30+ years, they have also been dumping their riot guns (at least as far as deadly force, many forces keep scatter guns for tossing specialty rounds, often with bright colored stocks and many have modified chambers or firing pins so that lethal ammo cannot be discharged) for AR-15s, and while 10 and 20 round AR mags are plentiful, I’ve never seen a police officer carry anything but 30 rounders, and most of the beat cops I see have between 50 and 100 rounds of pistol ammo on their belts.
There might be some merit to that, and given that Joe is telling a bunch of bad information in his “rational and reasonable” statement, he’s probably the party to ignore.
Feb 26, 2020 @ 13:23:22
I developed a massive flinch trying to shoot trap with my stepdad using a lightweight single barrel shotgun. If I were to recommend a shotgun to someone not used to shooting one, it would be a 5 shot gas operated semiauto in 20 ga to soften the recoil. But an AR-15 or Mini-14 is definitely easier on the shoulder.
Feb 26, 2020 @ 14:26:18
Mas Ayoob calculated that the recoil impulse of a 12ga #00 buck load was on par with African big game rifles. Hell I remember the first time I’d shot a 12ga, and it was steel shot so I assume the payload was less than an oz. The friend who had taught me to shoot, his Dad had an impressive collection, including a full SET of Weatherby Rifles, I don’t know if I had shot the .460 Weatherby Magnum yet, but I certainly had shot the .300 Weatherby Magnum, and I think we all can agree that those cartridges are stump-pullers, and the Weatherby Mk V rifles are meant to be carried long distances and shot once.
Still I was surprised at how much that 12ga booted me around.
I still don’t much care for shotguns.
Feb 26, 2020 @ 16:09:28
When my uncle passed away, I inherited his pre-64 Model 70 in 300 H and H Magnum. After I got home, I put 20 rounds of factory loads through it at the range. Next morning my right shoulder and right side of my chest was black and blue. Lesson learned!
Feb 26, 2020 @ 16:18:04
I ran 5 through the. 460 because my buddies Dad said I couldn’t do it. The next morning my bicep where it met my elbow was black and blue from the muscle hyper extending! I had a good teacher and kept that wild beast tucked in tight! I was amazed when I found out that was like $100 worth of ammo! He hand loaded, but I know one of those cases failed! Roy Weatherby knew his stuff, that rifle vented that case failure without an issue!
Feb 28, 2020 @ 15:46:35
Who really knows how many rounds one will need for self defense. At one time Officer Timothy Gramins thought a typical 47 rounds would do the job in the city he worked. But just one call changed his daily carry to 145 rounds…”every day, without fail.”
Gramins was involved in a firefight with an attacker that simply would not go down, even though he was shot 14 times with .45-cal. ammunition. It was reported that six of those hits were in supposedly fatal locations.
Now I’m not saying that everyone should have 145 rounds on them when they go outside, but who is to say or tell you what the round count should be. Do a simple Internet search on home invasions and see that, it seems, the number of intruders are going up from one.
As for shooting shotguns I got my first experience on the Ithica 37. I’ve never shot an African big game rifle so I don’t know what that feels like but I do know what it feels like shooting the Ithica and seeing what damage can be done to the VC.
Feb 28, 2020 @ 16:26:06
I took all of my deer with an Ithaca 37, 16 gauge. My dad gave me his 870 when he bought an 1100 but the Ithaca 37 with a Williams receiver sight put the meat in the freezer.
Feb 28, 2020 @ 22:09:15
Average accuracy for police officers in shootings is round about 15% hit rate. That pretty much assures anything fewer than twelve rounds will give an average of less than two hits on target.
So, why do we advocate for capacities of 10 or less?
Feb 29, 2020 @ 12:37:47
Maybe police should have 10 or less magazine capacity…there would be fewer rounds down range and fewer bystanders being hit by those misses.
Would be interesting to see what the hit-ratio is with law abiding citizens who are involved in shootings. Also how many bystanders are hit by those “law abiding citizen” shootings.
Mar 01, 2020 @ 13:28:19
Congratulations on your boy winning South Carolina!